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Strictly audio Saturday

(33 posts)
  1. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson

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    Reffub - 11 hours ago  » 
    It never was 5.1 it hasn't been down mixed to 2.0.
    So we're not talking about down mixed 5.1 here it was only ever 2.0 channel same goes for last years results show only ever 2.0.

    No one said it has. Last years series the main show was 5.1. The results show has never been in 5.1 since the first series.

    I was attempting to illustrate that you can go from 5.1 to 2.0 without losing any bass content. You can also create pseudo 5.1 from 2.0 without losing any bass it still finishes up coming from the subwoofer.

    Would you expect someone with SACD player and playing back a SACD stereo disk (lossless audio) on a 5.1 system to lose the bass content, that is patently absurd.

    Last year bass wise there was no difference at all between the main show and the results show.

    You seem to be rather obtuse, you were clearly under the impression that in that in the absence of a .1 channel your subwoofer doesn't work. It should work exactly the same if the recording was made in DD 2.0.

    If you are finding a lack of bass on stereo content (CD TV whatever) compared to a 5.1 mix the issue is down to your equipment or the way it's set up.

    In 2.0 the two front channels contain the full range of frequencies possible including the lower frequencies. It's down to the setup at your end depending on what speakers you use. You might have a pair of £5000.00 full range front speakers. If so there is little point in having a subwoofer. If as most of us you a small closed back enclosures that are very inefficient, they need a powerful amplifier and that the bass is handled by a seperate large speaker. This requires the amplifier to split the frequency sending the low frequency to the speaker designed to reproduce it.

    When we used large bass reflex enclosures (these use the sound from the rear of the speaker and a tuned port to output the bass and as they are not sealed the speaker cone can move a lot more). A 15W valve or solid state can generate more audio than a 100W design feeding small speakers.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 8:52:33 #11 |
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    Reffub

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    There's a reason why you didn't notice the lack of bass/LFE this season now it is mixed differently. Your sub is to small and weak to produce the lower frequencies at a level that you could ever appreciate them. So you're just hearing the same easily produced higher bass frequencies as you did before.

    I really get the feeling that you've never actually heard or more importantly never felt a proper home AV setup. If you want to do home AV properly you'll need a setup that can get down low and more importantly loud, feel music on movies in night clubs etc, have gun shots sounds hit your chest, have vibrations in your seat that run up your spine and of course experience the obligatory trouser flapping with jet engines. (Obviously you can get all that with stereo !)
    Increasing the crossover will put my whole system out of balance, the subs will take over and my setup will sound awfully. Subs don't have too play the whole .1 channel my fronts are large enough to play the higher bass frequencies as my sub is too large to play the higher bass frequencies. I've got a lossless DTS-HD Master 2.0 Audio track that has a lovely low end, my set up is fine given a good mix with good dynamic range.

    "You seem to be rather obtuse, you were clearly under the impression that in that in the absence of a .1 channel your subwoofer doesn't work."

    That's a really stupid comment as I never said that there wasn't any bass with SCD of course there is bass, I just said the bass was disappointing compared to the old live 5.1. (Mind you I wish I hadn't said that now as it just gave you an excuse to try to sound intelligent yet again.)

    I do think you're doing the old 5.1 SCD sound engineers an injustice, when it was mixed live it was great and went nice and low. As your system like most is incapable of producing lower frequencies at any decent volume you wouldn't of appreciated it and obviously your not going to miss that low end now it is mixed differently.

    Anyway for the third time thanks for your first reply, I just wanted to make sure my Foxsat HDR was behaving properly and it is and good luck getting some proper LFE out of your system.

    If it helps I have a twin 15" sealed sub in a solid oak cabinet powered by a High-Density 6000w amplifier with built in DSP control. I had a 1000w ported sub before that but sealed is so much better for music and movies.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 11:22:10 #12 |
  3. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson

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    Reffub - 10 minutes ago  » 
    There's a reason why you didn't notice the lack of bass/LFE this season now it is mixed differently. Your sub is to small and weak to produce the lower frequencies at a level that you could ever appreciate them. So you're just hearing the same easily produced higher bass frequencies as you did before.
    I really get the feeling that you've never actually heard or more importantly never felt a proper home AV setup. If you want to do home AV properly you'll need a setup that can get down low and more importantly loud, feel music on movies in night clubs etc, have gun shots sounds hit your chest, have vibrations in your seat that run up your spine and of course experience the obligatory trouser flapping with jet engines. (Obviously you can get all that with stereo !)
    Increasing the crossover will put my whole system out of balance, the subs will take over and my setup will sound awfully. Subs don't have too play the whole .1 channel my fronts are large enough to play the higher bass frequencies as my sub is too large to play the higher bass frequencies. I've got a lossless DTS-HD Master 2.0 Audio track that has a lovely low end, my set up is fine given a good mix with good dynamic range.
    "You seem to be rather obtuse, you were clearly under the impression that in that in the absence of a .1 channel your subwoofer doesn't work."
    That's a really stupid comment as I never said that there wasn't any bass with SCD of course there is bass, I just said the bass was disappointing compared to the old live 5.1. (Mind you I wish I hadn't said that now as it just gave you an excuse to try to sound intelligent yet again.)
    I do think you're doing the old 5.1 SCD sound engineers an injustice, when it was mixed live it was great and went nice and low. As your system like most is incapable of producing lower frequencies at any decent volume you wouldn't of appreciated it and obviously your not going to miss that low end now it is mixed differently.
    Anyway for the third time thanks for your first reply, I just wanted to make sure my Foxsat HDR was behaving properly and it is and good luck getting some proper LFE out of your system.
    If it helps I have a twin 15" sealed sub in a solid oak cabinet powered by a High-Density 6000w amplifier with built in DSP control. I had a 1000w ported sub before that but sealed is so much better for music and movies.

    I say again 5.1 does not in any way increase the bass capability over 2.0. Why you think it does baffles me. If I could be bothered I could set up a video editor and analyse the audio to prove it. There's no doubt a good 5.1 mix improves the sound no end, but it does not increase the potential bass in any way. I could easily remix a current version to 2.1 but it would be a totally pointless exercise. There is no content at all below 20Hz on any Dolby Digital channel. That's as low as it goes. DTS/Dolby Digital plus improves the dynamic range over ac3 but again the lowest freqency is 50Hz. The higher bitrates of DTS has more dynamic range.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 11:38:18 #13 |
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    Reffub

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    "I say again 5.1 does not in any way increase the bass capability over 2.0. Why you think it does baffles me."

    What baffles me is that you completely ignore the fact that the show was mixed live in 5.1 by BBC sound engineers, why do you insist on presuming that the sound engineer put the exact same bass in to the current 2.0 as they did in a 5.1. It's not called a bass channel is it.
    The only reason you think the SCD stereo sounds/feels the same as the old 5.1 is because on your setup it does. Maybe it's time to upgrade you obviously can't produce the dB needed to fully appreciate low frequency sound.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 12:52:18 #14 |
  5. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson

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    Reffub - 24 minutes ago  » 
    "I say again 5.1 does not in any way increase the bass capability over 2.0. Why you think it does baffles me."
    What baffles me is that you completely ignore the fact that the show was mixed live in 5.1 by BBC sound engineers, why do you insist on presuming that the sound engineer put the exact same bass in to the current 2.0 as they did in a 5.1. It's not called a bass channel is it.
    The only reason you think the SCD stereo sounds/feels the same as the old 5.1 is because on your setup it does. Maybe it's time to upgrade you obviously can't produce the dB needed to fully appreciate low frequency sound.

    Because the sound is recorded by microphones with the same frequency response. They can't add bass which isn't there in the first place. They can move it about within a 5.1 mix but basically that's it.

    Anyway this is pointless, I am out of here. If I can find a recording of the last season I may come back.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 13:19:42 #15 |
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    Reffub

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    grahamlthompson - 34 minutes ago  » 

    Reffub - 24 minutes ago  » 
    "I say again 5.1 does not in any way increase the bass capability over 2.0. Why you think it does baffles me."
    What baffles me is that you completely ignore the fact that the show was mixed live in 5.1 by BBC sound engineers, why do you insist on presuming that the sound engineer put the exact same bass in to the current 2.0 as they did in a 5.1. It's not called a bass channel is it.
    The only reason you think the SCD stereo sounds/feels the same as the old 5.1 is because on your setup it does. Maybe it's time to upgrade you obviously can't produce the dB needed to fully appreciate low frequency sound.

    Because the sound is recorded by microphones with the same frequency response. They can't add bass which isn't there in the first place. They can move it about within a 5.1 mix but basically that's it.
    Anyway this is pointless, I am out of here. If I can find a recording of the last season I may come back.

    Wiki.......
    "Audio mixing is the process by which multiple sounds are combined into one or more channels. In the process, a source's volume level frequency content, dynamics and panoramic position are manipulated and or enhanced. "

    As I said before you're doing the SCD sound engineers an injustice and obviously you know absolutely zero about audio mixing.
    By all means knock yourself out and come back with an overly complicated posts but it will be coming from a person that spent the best part of 60 years not knowing what force (singular) keeps satellites in orbit ! You're certainly not an expert on everything like you think you are and we can now add sound mixing to that.

    Anyway thanks for not being at all helpful with everything but your first reply.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 14:00:51 #16 |
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    Pollensa1946

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    Graham's position appears to be based on an assumption that this seasons recordings were recorded live in 2.0, rather than 5.1 and then down-mixed to 2.0 for (say) broadcast bandwidth reasons. If it was in fact the latter then the degree of compression they may, or may not, have introduced is an unknown. They could for example have compressed the LFE channel. Correct?
    For example, If I rip a cd I can choose FLAC or MP3. I know what sounds better. No argument.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 14:25:01 #17 |
  8. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson

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    Pollensa1946 - 13 minutes ago  » 
    Graham's position appears to be based on an assumption that this seasons recordings were recorded live in 2.0, rather than 5.1 and then down-mixed to 2.0 for (say) broadcast bandwidth reasons. If it was in fact the latter then the degree of compression they may, or may not, have introduced is an unknown. They could for example have compressed the LFE channel. Correct?
    For example, If I rip a cd I can choose FLAC or MP3. I know what sounds better. No argument.

    Why would they compress the lfe channel it has much less data than the surround channels. A post somewhere says the current studio does not have 5.1 capability so must be recorded and compressed using DD2.0.

    No problem providing the audio details.

    Audio #1
    ID : 5401 (0x1519)
    Menu ID : 6941 (0x1B1D)
    Format : AC-3
    Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
    Format settings, Endianness : Big
    Codec ID : 6
    Duration : 1 h 44 min
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 192 kb/s
    Channel(s) : 2 channels
    Channel positions : Front: L R
    Sampling rate : 48.0 kHz
    Frame rate : 31.250 FPS (1536 SPF)
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Delay relative to video : -776 ms
    Stream size : 144 MiB (2%)
    Language : English
    Service kind : Complete Main

    Seeing as how FLAC is lossless and MP3 very lossy, of course it sounds better, doesn't mean the lowest frequency in one is any different to the other.

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 14:47:29 #18 |
  9. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson

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    Seems unlikely the BBC is transmitting audio that does not conform to it's own spec for external generated content.

    http://dpp-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/specs/bbc/TechnicalDeliveryStandardsBBCFile.pdf

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 15:08:42 #19 |
  10. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson

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    Duplicate post

    | Mon 23 Oct 2017 15:11:25 #20 |

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